Will Work for Swords

This was a feat of ELF, not PETA. Yes, PETA gave them money. That does not necessarily mean that they knew exactly what was going on. If I give you a candy bar, and you trade it for a rifle, which you in turn shoot people with, am I a murderer? Just a thought...

I know PETA is an extremist group, that is why they are effective. That is not really an issue in question, despite the tone of the article.

The real issue lies in the fact that they were distributing funds to other organizations while maintaining a non-profit taxation status.

Just clarifying... it seems like the statement "PETA must die" is a bit of an over-reaction.

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Oh, bullshit. You mean to say that when a radical animal rights group, known to advocate terrorism, gave money to a known environmental terrorist organization, they had NO IDEA what the money would be used for?

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You're half right. PETA is a radical movement.

As an active member of PETA, I can assure you that they do not advocate terrorism. Perhaps you should turn off your television, and stop being brainwashed by capitalist media.

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Clearly you aren't interested in (or capable of) rational discussion. Therefore:

*sigh* Dumbfuck liberal. If I believed in God, I'd thank him that the lot of you haven't succeeded in reducing us all to vegan, pagan, doubletalking lesbians. As it is, I have only my fellow humans (some of them, at least) to thank for that.. but I am thankful, nonetheless.

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WOW, that comment was incredibly offensive, on many levels. Just because you perceive that someone isn't capcable of rational discussion, doesn't mean you should sling around the insults. It only invalidates your argument, IMHO.

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I sincerely hope so; one good turn (or not) deserves another.

As to my argument, it's already been made, and no one has refuted it, unless you count kneejerk accusations of brainwashing. If you consider facts less important in an argument than an insincere veneer of politeness, then I must question your capabilities also.

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niro.livejournal.com

Unless you're working off of at minimum more then the foxnews article then you definitely do not have enough information to make that judgement. So no your point isn't terribly valid or relevent as you're only saying "in my opinion surely they would have known what the money was going to be used for", and though it's nice of you to weigh in with your opinion, you don't have an argument to base it on, at least not one that you've presented.

And politeness is perhaps the most important aspect of rational discourse. Without it the actual topic, and the facts, are quickly obscured by personal attacks, and your own hatred of the person presenting the opposing view will make you irrational.

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In my opinion PETA knew what the money was for.. kind of like how in my opinion, the sky is blue. Are you saying that when PETA gave away thousands of dollars, they had no idea what it was for? Did they just do it on a whim? Did those people win the PETA lottery or something?

PETA gave the money to terrorists. They're the ones holding the smoking gun here. I'm not the one whose views need defending. If PETA or its near-sighted apologists want to challenge my argument, they could start by explaining what the money WAS intended for.

One other thing: I love how I'm being criticized for the content of my comments, while no one EXCEPT me sees fit to criticize miss "I love PETA and you're brainwashed retards!" here. Why don't you people lecture her? Is it because you consider her utterly beneath you and unworthy of any response.. or because you're in the habit of using liberal thought-police dodges to dismiss opposing viewpoints without having to form a credible counterargument?

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Clearly you aren't interested in (or capable of) rational discussion.

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Well of course not, dearie! I've been brainwashed by the capitalist media working through the television (that I hardly ever watch), remember? How could I make a coherent argument against a near-criminal organization when I'm just some industry's handpuppet?

*rolls eyes*

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So then it would be okay for a group to give money to Hamas since in addition to blowing up buses and restaurants they offer education to the poor?
I mean, after all, the group giving the money isn't the terrorist group!

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a)what does this have to do with terrorism?

b)I think you're missing my point. First, PETA did not allocate the usage of the money (as far as we know). Secondly, the real issue in this, the reason PETA is being investigated, is because they GAVE money away. They're a non-profit. Non-profits can't distribute money to other non-profits. If they do, uncle sam thinks they are a "for-profit" venture, therefore, they should be paying taxes. As opposed to non-profits, who don't pay taxes. [read: the issue here, regardless of the journalist's cheap attempts to play to irrational human emotion, is one of taxation, or, essentially, tax evasion.]

Did you read the article??!

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Of course I read the article. I'm just curious if you have.

The real issue is why did PETA give money to a man who has attempted to murder a medical researcher? They donated $7,500 dollars to his defense fund. This man was convicted btw.

PETA's leadership has shown their true colours time and time again. They disgrace everything that animal rights should stand for. Their tactics are failing and yet people still give them money. Have you asked the leaders of PETA why they support a group who destroyed an innocent family's home? (http://web.archive.org/web/20010713205136/http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/06/11/sunmag/features/eco.htm)

PETA should not have given ANY money whatseover to the ELF. If they are truly supportive of animal rights they should have known better. I'm very hopeful that their tax exempt status gets thrown out.

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this is like reasoning with a stone.

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johntbrady.livejournal.com

Just another extremist group... I rank PETA with the OCA and I rank ELF with the PLO. We live in a society where we agree to a systematic process to create change... if you step outside that system for any reason that makes you a criminal. I don't care how good somebody thinks there ideas are... I don't want them forced on me Eutopia or not. This was my complaint with Communism, and it's my complaint with ELF.

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The actions of a few aren't representative of the entire organization. It's like all of the shit that's been going on with Enron and Xerox and stuff ... only a handful of people in the higher-ups are responsible for it. PETA does a LOT of good things to prevent animal cruelty using non-violent means ... such as getting circuses to quit abusing their animals, and getting animal shelters to have more sanitary and humane living conditions, just to name a couple.

It's like political parties ... you always have the extreme ends of a belief system in there somewhere. Yeah, there are people that break into laboratories and destroy property. Unfortuantely, that's the only stuff that ever gets press. They get called an "extremist" group because they are championing for something that very few people believe in ... animal rights. The fact that we've distinguished between the precious family cat and the cow on our plate is rather ludicrous to me, and to these people as well. An animal is an animal is an animal. There are a lot more stories and acts of goodness that come out of this group that are beneficial to all, than there are acts of violence, period.

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Yeah. But it's PETA's leadership who has for years been spouting outright stupidities and hatred for any who disagree. Some tasty quotes.

---"It would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories,
and the banks who fund them exploded tomorrow."
-- Bruce Friedrich PeTA's Vegan Campaign Coordinator. July 2001

---"Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation."
-- Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA

---"Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause."
-Alex Pacheco, Director, PeTA

---"I wish we all would get up and go into the labs and take the animals out or burn them down."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PeTA, National Animal Rights Convention '97, June 27, 1997

---"Six million Jews died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughter houses."
-Ingrid Newkirk, President, PeTA, The Washington Post, November 13, 1983.

---"The bottom line is that people don't have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats ... If people want toys, they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind,"
-- Ingrid Newkirk, PeTA

"The cat, like the dog, must disappear..... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist."
-John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of a Changing Ethic, PETA 1982, p.15.

"As John Bryant has written in his book Fettered Kingdoms, they [pets] are like slaves, even if well-kept slaves."
-PETA's Statement on Companion Animals

"Andrew Cunanan, because he got Versace to stop doing fur."
-PETA's David Mathews reply when to Genre request for "Men We Love"

"In a war you have to take up arms and people will get killed, and I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war, and there's no other way you can stop vivisectors."
-Tim Daley, British Animal Liberation Front Leader (Ingrid Newkirk is a HUGE fan of the ALF and has written a book on the history of them)

Rodney Coronado, a member of the Animal Liberation Front, pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 57 months in prison for the destruction of an animal diagnostics research lab at the University of California, Davis in April, 1987 (total damage estimates: $4.5 million). PETA sent $ 45,200 to Coronado's 'support committee,' which was a sum 15 times greater
than what PETA spent on animal shelters nationwide in all of that year.

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niro.livejournal.com

You're characterizing the whole organization by a few key sound bites, that's completely idiotic.

I'm not a big fan of PETA myself, but they do do a lot a good things, and the "terrorist" aspect of the whole organization is very small, there are a few people on the fringes, as there is in any large organization.

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The problem with PETA is that these aren't the fringes. These are the leaders of PETA. These are the ones who dictate how the organization is run.

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That's pretty much my point, nicely summed up.

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I'm characterizing the movement based on their actions and words by their leadership. not a "Few small sound bites." PETA has repeatedly demonstrated their fanaticism time and time again. Their leaders are supposed to be the mouthpiece of PETA, well, they've been doing a great job of spreading their twisted message. Encouraging violence and donating money time and time again to people associated with even more extremist groups such as the ELF. Are we ignoring the point that PETA has donated money to the defense funds of people convicted of attempted murder? Are we ignoring the fact that they've donated money to groups exhorting violence and carbombings?

Geez, if the leadership of PETA doesn't accurately reflect the views of the organization, then please tell me who is supposed to?

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niro.livejournal.com

So tell me this, does George W. Bush accurately reflect your views?

And before you say "well that's different", tell me, have you ever been involved in a fairly large, volunteer run, non-profit organization? It really isn't much different, there isn't the strict chain of command, and many of the volunteers will have slightly opposing viewpoints. Further, there is a board, there are several different administrators, the voice of an individual does not accurately represent the voice of the organization.

You can also get a pretty good picture of what they stand for, and what they do, by looking at their budget. The whole budget mind you, not just the few figures you have of money that might have been used for "terrorist" activities.

Mind you that I'm not denying that some money has gone to these activities, what I'm contending is that the vast majority of the resources of PETA go to legal activities and actions. You have every right to be opposed to PETA on what they stand for, you can even call them all fucktards. What you really should try to avoid doing is judging the many by the actions of the few, that's not helpful to anybody.

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johntbrady.livejournal.com

I am sure there are plenty of really nice people in PETA that would be horified by the use of violence for the animal rights movement. However there are a good many that aren't... the responsibility of the leadership of these kinds of organizations is to ensure that the members do not go overboard or otherwise "hurt the cause", and if they do they MUST speak out against it. Think of good old Arafat and his speaches for peace in english and his speaches for violence in Ahrabic. ELF are terrorists, PETA is fringe extremists... maybe not all but they allow enough in there ranks to be lumped with them. If you want a good place to send your money or volunteer time try the Humane Society, they are prety much spotless.

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"So tell me this, does George W. Bush accurately reflect your views?"

That's a stupid question; being a PETA supporter is voluntary. Having a government isn't. And for the record, I didn't vote for him.

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I do remember a couple of stories that are fun about PETA.

1) To stop the killing of minks at a fur farm, they burnt it down. Of course, killing the minks inside.

2) To protest, the balling of tails of cattle for shows they cut tails off.

3) In an effort to free lobsters, they bought them and freed them in the Pacific were the lobster died because of the tempature difference.

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I see nothing wrong with more than half of those quotes ... animals are treated absolutely terribly by slaughterhouses, fur farms, and other means of animal-related product production. IBP, the nation's largest beef producer, not only keeps its animals in inhumane and disgusting conditions, but also doesn't always slaughter them humnely (I.E. they aren't dead when they're cut up), and they also treat their workers like crap.
The majority of workers in slaughterhouses are migrant workers, and the job conditions are so abysmal that the majority of slaughterhouses have a 100% employee-turnover rate. That's absolutely unheard of, and the highest for any industry in the nation.

Just because we have the means doesn't mean we have the right to inflict pain on anyone or anything. If we were doing this with kittens or puppies or other cute things (those animals ARE scarificed in labs, btw) then people would flip out. We've developed this werid justification mechanism: "Oh, it's just a cow." Cows weren't stupid before we bred them to be that way, for food. And they have just as large of a central nervous system as you or I and have just as much capacity to feel pain.

I, personally, am a vegatarian. I eat cheese and dairy. I don't eat meat because A) red meat is unhealthy; B) I don't like the taste of it, except for some fish; and C) the methods of mass slaughtering are absolutely appauling. I don't have a problem with those who eat meat, I have a problem with the methods of production. Visit a slaughterhouse sometime. It will make you a vegetarian.

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Been to a slaughterhouse, not a vegitarian. How many have you been to?

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Here is my critism of liberalism. You would have me to not condem all of PETA's members because they couldn't participate in terrorim. Yet, you critize the meat industry for treatment of animals, and are you willing to vouch that the meat producers treat animals in a different manner? Could it be possible that animals are treated in a humane manner, and still be slaughtered? Personally, I have yet to meet an animal that would prefer freedom over having grain brought to them everyday.

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Your response is not entirely clear ... could you clarify a bit?

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Sure. You say we cannot judge all PETA by the few really crazy people, and I am saying that you cannot judge the meat industry by a few large suppliers

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yeah, nevermind. you're just retarded.

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Oh I'm sorry. How dare I bring up valid criticisms of PETA's leadership? OH MY! Please forgive me! I mean, I should just let them do what they want, even if that encourages fanatics to try to kill fishermen (Josh Harper, CONVICTED), murder medical researchers (Fran Trutt, CONVICTED), and cause intense traumatic stress to young children. (http://web.archive.org/web/20010713205136/http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2000/06/11/sunmag/features/eco.htm) It's all fine since hey, it's for the animals. (Unless you're a human animal cause they don't count apparently.)

PETA deserves to lose their tax exempt status. Their leadership has repeatedly called for acts of violence and openly admired murderers for "making Versace stop using fur."

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I agree with you that PETA deserves to lose their non-profit status. My point is that is the only issue in question.

Perhaps you should attempt to be a bit less emotive, and more realistic.

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At last, something we agree on.

I do apologize for being somewhat emotional about this. I'm still kind of pissed off over how some peta members here in Seattle treated my friend's grandmother once. Apparently they thought it'd be a great idea to toss red paint on her for wearing a fur coat.

Keep in mind this lady was over 80 at the time and the coat was a wedding present from her late husband dating back to when she was in her 20s. So yeah, I'll admit I'm not too keen on PETA's tactics.

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dellswor.livejournal.com

An animal is not an animal is not an animal. Cows taste much better than cats. At least that's why my family ate the family cow insted of the family cat.

Though that might have been in part because mom didn't know how to prepare cat very well compared to cow... (shrug) Anyone have some good recipies for cat? I've heard that some island cultures have good recipies for dog, does anyone have one of those?

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